[quote=""mjannusch""]Get a quick car and drag race against some friends and it sure can be.
Twisty road racing is fun too, but that's not what we were talking about.[/quote]
Been there, done that, im over it.
4G in a 3S!
Moderator: Monochrome
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tabasco122
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Re: 4G in a 3S!
scat1zzi
12:12 am: if the phone charger is a penis, and the chargy bit inside the phone is the vagina, i made my phones vagina prolapse on itself and cause catastrophic failure
[quote=""Seraflame""]Fear has nothing to do with it. It's a simple equation.
Is the shen I'm about to pull and the laughs that ensue = to or > the payback my wife is likely to impose? If yes. Shens. If no. Shens.[/quote]
12:12 am: if the phone charger is a penis, and the chargy bit inside the phone is the vagina, i made my phones vagina prolapse on itself and cause catastrophic failure
[quote=""Seraflame""]Fear has nothing to do with it. It's a simple equation.
Is the shen I'm about to pull and the laughs that ensue = to or > the payback my wife is likely to impose? If yes. Shens. If no. Shens.[/quote]
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aaronatstate
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Re: 4G in a 3S!
[quote=""Hans_GZP""]I like that I build a car for Emilie, Toni copies Emilie, and you copy Toni. My investment in her car has almost paid for itself. Although she doesn't have a driveshaft yet, but you guys do! SUCKERS![/quote]
Chr15t0ph3r85: YES
Chr15t0ph3r85: GOOO STATE
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TurboSinceBirth
- Posts: 185
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Re: 4G in a 3S!
[quote=""Jeff V.""]I keep hearing that 'better support' in a whole bunch of threads. What critical part(s) does the DSM have that we don't?
If, like our Dr Frankenstein friend, you only want ~500hp, why not use a cookie cutter vendor build? We've got at least 4 people posting in this thread who have done it (or very close to it), reliably, and without breaking the bank.[/quote]
We have what one vendor intake manifold solution? DR intake plenum for $1k. I know there's labor and materials involved but there should still be a more affordable option. It's the premium that comes with DR products. We have eBay intakes and Xcessive Manufacturing makes a manifold for a Galant 6G72. There's also GCTech intakes. DR is the only one that has really been proven across more than one car and yet there isn't any dyno numbers for how much is gained with the swap alone on different setups not an 8 sec car. Go over to the DSMs and multiple intakes have been thoroughly tested. You know what you will get when you throw it on.
How about throttle bodies? We did have a CXRacing 70mm billet throttle body but it wasn't designed with seals so it leaks. There's never been a good specific 6G72 throttle body upgrade that retains our sensors. The Q90 gives poor driving response. I actually picked up a DSM 91-99 aftermarket S90 billet 70mm throttle body. For years I knew their sensors were the same on 2nd gens but never bothered to upgrade my throttle body. Now I'm going to try it since everything bolts on. We still have no aftermarket options. I'm not saying we need one since plenty of people have made 800+AWHP on one but what's to say that 62mm opening isn't robbing power? There's no dyno data before and after nor is there pre and post throttle body MAP sensor data to know what kind of a restriction it is. There's plenty of data on the DSM forums for their throttle body upgrades.
Cams. Well, we have at least had some good cam offerings. Delta camshaft makes a good portion of the regrind cams for the vendors. Web cam makes DR's cams. BC finally fixed their flawed design with Ray's help so it's correct now. However, we still have very little data on the cams. We know what powerband or turbine side various size cams like 264, 272, and 280 are good for, but I don't remember seeing much dyno data on before and after cam swaps. That's another thing missing from the platform.
Single turbo kits. We used to have a good IPS kit. Granted, it was very expensive and the majority of people didn't want one. Twins will always make more power and area under the curve on our cars. There's no way around it with our V engine configuration and long exhaust piping you'd need for a single turbo setup. It would still be nice to have the kit as an option. Given the fact that Dave has Trevor's old GTX42R kit from his Stealth for sale on 3SI for $7k because he's going a different direction with the car, it probably won't sell for a long time. It's a cheap platform.
Speed density for flash tuning. We have an AEM EMS but that's outside of the majority of people's budget plus it's much more complex to tune. With ECMLink there is the option to use speed density. Both DSMs and EVOs have this option. They're not MAF limited. Ray already proved on the dyno the stock, montero 482, and evo 399 mafs are hindering power after 400AWHP. A vacuum is created between the maf sensor and the turbo inlets. The turbos have to force suck the air to make more power. That's not an efficient setup. Power can be gained running a bigger GM or Ford MAF. We've known this for years. Matt upgraded his maf a very long time ago. There's still more power to be had by getting rid of a maf, the stock air bubble, and pre-turbo pipes. Those are the next restrictions. AEM users can do it but flashable users should be able to do it too. I know Greg could incur a great deal of noob tuning headaches compared to now. He wants to make the tuning setup as idiot proof as possible. I understand that but a different solution for a blow through maf setup or speed density to get rid of the restrictions would push the flashed ecu setup much further. It sells good now but that would be so much more attractive to users.
I could keep going but I think you get the point. It's obvious there isn't as much support for our platform. The proven builds Matt and Ray put together with their parts work. I've got plenty of their stuff. Sometimes that makes it too easy and boring. I can work on a car, take it all the way apart, rebuild it, tune piggybacks, do some chrome and standalone tuning, and yet I get bored with the lack of challenge. Maybe that's why I change setups because putting something simple together and maxing it out wears off the fun factor. I think this is part of the reason some people like to do different and more unique builds. It doesn't hurt the platform. Vendors will continue to push better products when they feel the need to. It's also nice to have many options. I got bored with 700hp on billet TD04s until not having driven my car for almost a year and a half. I'd be content with 500hp for a month or two but then I'd be ready to turn it up again regardless of driving it maybe 2-300 miles.
For a 500hp build a cookie cutter build is the best. Not everyone is mechanically inclined so it's best to keep it simple. It's still a fun daily driver too. Some of us just want more and really past 650hp it gets ridiculously expensive quick. I have a feeling Eric says he only wants 500hp but he will be going with much more. His simplification from MTC Stage 2 turbos was a good choice but the 3.5L 14b setup didn't last long.
[quote=""AudibleSilence""]I've just never seen the engine as a limiting factor on mph. My trans will go X amount of mph in each gear mechanically speaking. I can however tell it to shift at say 7,000rpm. I don't though because I make no real additional power above 6,400. If I throw turbos on my car right now, I can tell the car to shift at 7,000rpm providing I still have power up there. If it is mechanically possible via gearing to spin up the trans that high I can. I suppose I was just wondering why he wouldn't just make more power and tell the trans to shift a bit later.[/quote]
As was already stated and I'm sure you're aware of is that we're not talking about power output 4G vs 6G. I don't think there's a question there. It's the mere fact that the car will be gear limited. I can't tell you how much a 1" taller tire will help in trap speed or with coilovers how much you could go taller on a tire if it included not dropping the car. 4th gear can't be used in the auto because it'll break every time. 3SX's T2 did that many times. I can't remember if T4 was ever auto.
So with an auto and 3rd gear at 7200 rpms you're probably looking at high 120s trap. You either put bigger tires on or rev a little higher. Put a really big turbo setup in there like large TD05s or T3s and you're really going to be hurting. The car would have to go faster in 3rd to trap 140-150 it would probably need which I'm sure is somewhere around 9k rpms. Our oil pump gears have issues past 8000 rpms. Itallo's billet gears would solve that. You'd probably need upgraded springs to handle the float. Who knows what other oiling issues would be a problem or if a SCE dry sump setup would have to be installed.
Outside of a TD04 or smaller TD05 turbo choice an auto is a stupid decision for going to the track. It's definitely much cheaper, more reliable sans the 4th gear, and consistent. I would rather not have my car be top speed limited to 130-135. I usually don't drive fast because 1-3 was the most fun in my car but I do recall on different occasions when installing upgrades that the first time you hit a much higher power level it's almost like a state of trance. It got to the point where I was in 4th doing 140 and didn't even realize it because I was mesmerized by the pull and power pushing me back in the seat. Anyone that rides in a more powerful car than what they're used to knows what I'm talking about.
He can make all the more power he wants but will be mph limited by 3rd gear. That's the downfall. It'd be like running a powerful car but only using 3/4 of the track because you hit your top speed before then even though there's plenty of power left just no gear. That's a real buzzkill.
I'm sorry if I got long winded. I'm more of a serious enthusiast and enjoy modding my car. I like to help people too so some things fascinate me. I hate to see people go down the wrong road only to redo something over and over. I won't rule out being different if I think they can accomplish it at the same time.
If, like our Dr Frankenstein friend, you only want ~500hp, why not use a cookie cutter vendor build? We've got at least 4 people posting in this thread who have done it (or very close to it), reliably, and without breaking the bank.[/quote]
We have what one vendor intake manifold solution? DR intake plenum for $1k. I know there's labor and materials involved but there should still be a more affordable option. It's the premium that comes with DR products. We have eBay intakes and Xcessive Manufacturing makes a manifold for a Galant 6G72. There's also GCTech intakes. DR is the only one that has really been proven across more than one car and yet there isn't any dyno numbers for how much is gained with the swap alone on different setups not an 8 sec car. Go over to the DSMs and multiple intakes have been thoroughly tested. You know what you will get when you throw it on.
How about throttle bodies? We did have a CXRacing 70mm billet throttle body but it wasn't designed with seals so it leaks. There's never been a good specific 6G72 throttle body upgrade that retains our sensors. The Q90 gives poor driving response. I actually picked up a DSM 91-99 aftermarket S90 billet 70mm throttle body. For years I knew their sensors were the same on 2nd gens but never bothered to upgrade my throttle body. Now I'm going to try it since everything bolts on. We still have no aftermarket options. I'm not saying we need one since plenty of people have made 800+AWHP on one but what's to say that 62mm opening isn't robbing power? There's no dyno data before and after nor is there pre and post throttle body MAP sensor data to know what kind of a restriction it is. There's plenty of data on the DSM forums for their throttle body upgrades.
Cams. Well, we have at least had some good cam offerings. Delta camshaft makes a good portion of the regrind cams for the vendors. Web cam makes DR's cams. BC finally fixed their flawed design with Ray's help so it's correct now. However, we still have very little data on the cams. We know what powerband or turbine side various size cams like 264, 272, and 280 are good for, but I don't remember seeing much dyno data on before and after cam swaps. That's another thing missing from the platform.
Single turbo kits. We used to have a good IPS kit. Granted, it was very expensive and the majority of people didn't want one. Twins will always make more power and area under the curve on our cars. There's no way around it with our V engine configuration and long exhaust piping you'd need for a single turbo setup. It would still be nice to have the kit as an option. Given the fact that Dave has Trevor's old GTX42R kit from his Stealth for sale on 3SI for $7k because he's going a different direction with the car, it probably won't sell for a long time. It's a cheap platform.
Speed density for flash tuning. We have an AEM EMS but that's outside of the majority of people's budget plus it's much more complex to tune. With ECMLink there is the option to use speed density. Both DSMs and EVOs have this option. They're not MAF limited. Ray already proved on the dyno the stock, montero 482, and evo 399 mafs are hindering power after 400AWHP. A vacuum is created between the maf sensor and the turbo inlets. The turbos have to force suck the air to make more power. That's not an efficient setup. Power can be gained running a bigger GM or Ford MAF. We've known this for years. Matt upgraded his maf a very long time ago. There's still more power to be had by getting rid of a maf, the stock air bubble, and pre-turbo pipes. Those are the next restrictions. AEM users can do it but flashable users should be able to do it too. I know Greg could incur a great deal of noob tuning headaches compared to now. He wants to make the tuning setup as idiot proof as possible. I understand that but a different solution for a blow through maf setup or speed density to get rid of the restrictions would push the flashed ecu setup much further. It sells good now but that would be so much more attractive to users.
I could keep going but I think you get the point. It's obvious there isn't as much support for our platform. The proven builds Matt and Ray put together with their parts work. I've got plenty of their stuff. Sometimes that makes it too easy and boring. I can work on a car, take it all the way apart, rebuild it, tune piggybacks, do some chrome and standalone tuning, and yet I get bored with the lack of challenge. Maybe that's why I change setups because putting something simple together and maxing it out wears off the fun factor. I think this is part of the reason some people like to do different and more unique builds. It doesn't hurt the platform. Vendors will continue to push better products when they feel the need to. It's also nice to have many options. I got bored with 700hp on billet TD04s until not having driven my car for almost a year and a half. I'd be content with 500hp for a month or two but then I'd be ready to turn it up again regardless of driving it maybe 2-300 miles.
For a 500hp build a cookie cutter build is the best. Not everyone is mechanically inclined so it's best to keep it simple. It's still a fun daily driver too. Some of us just want more and really past 650hp it gets ridiculously expensive quick. I have a feeling Eric says he only wants 500hp but he will be going with much more. His simplification from MTC Stage 2 turbos was a good choice but the 3.5L 14b setup didn't last long.
[quote=""AudibleSilence""]I've just never seen the engine as a limiting factor on mph. My trans will go X amount of mph in each gear mechanically speaking. I can however tell it to shift at say 7,000rpm. I don't though because I make no real additional power above 6,400. If I throw turbos on my car right now, I can tell the car to shift at 7,000rpm providing I still have power up there. If it is mechanically possible via gearing to spin up the trans that high I can. I suppose I was just wondering why he wouldn't just make more power and tell the trans to shift a bit later.[/quote]
As was already stated and I'm sure you're aware of is that we're not talking about power output 4G vs 6G. I don't think there's a question there. It's the mere fact that the car will be gear limited. I can't tell you how much a 1" taller tire will help in trap speed or with coilovers how much you could go taller on a tire if it included not dropping the car. 4th gear can't be used in the auto because it'll break every time. 3SX's T2 did that many times. I can't remember if T4 was ever auto.
So with an auto and 3rd gear at 7200 rpms you're probably looking at high 120s trap. You either put bigger tires on or rev a little higher. Put a really big turbo setup in there like large TD05s or T3s and you're really going to be hurting. The car would have to go faster in 3rd to trap 140-150 it would probably need which I'm sure is somewhere around 9k rpms. Our oil pump gears have issues past 8000 rpms. Itallo's billet gears would solve that. You'd probably need upgraded springs to handle the float. Who knows what other oiling issues would be a problem or if a SCE dry sump setup would have to be installed.
Outside of a TD04 or smaller TD05 turbo choice an auto is a stupid decision for going to the track. It's definitely much cheaper, more reliable sans the 4th gear, and consistent. I would rather not have my car be top speed limited to 130-135. I usually don't drive fast because 1-3 was the most fun in my car but I do recall on different occasions when installing upgrades that the first time you hit a much higher power level it's almost like a state of trance. It got to the point where I was in 4th doing 140 and didn't even realize it because I was mesmerized by the pull and power pushing me back in the seat. Anyone that rides in a more powerful car than what they're used to knows what I'm talking about.
He can make all the more power he wants but will be mph limited by 3rd gear. That's the downfall. It'd be like running a powerful car but only using 3/4 of the track because you hit your top speed before then even though there's plenty of power left just no gear. That's a real buzzkill.
I'm sorry if I got long winded. I'm more of a serious enthusiast and enjoy modding my car. I like to help people too so some things fascinate me. I hate to see people go down the wrong road only to redo something over and over. I won't rule out being different if I think they can accomplish it at the same time.
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green-lantern
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Re: 4G in a 3S!
Michael, how many words can you type in a minute? I bet you are damn fast. lol
[quote=""Hans_GZP""] I think I had Em reach her bitch paws in there to get the nuts off. [/quote]
"Ask not what you can do for your country - ask what your country can do for you." - The gimme generation
"Ask not what you can do for your country - ask what your country can do for you." - The gimme generation
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Monochrome
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Re: 4G in a 3S!
[quote=""AudibleSilence""]3s owners just aren't willing to pay the big $$$ to go fast.
How fast could this guy want to go? T4 actually WAS auto, I know because Steve was trying to sell the trans for an insane amount of money and I gave him shit over it. [/quote]
Chastise 3/S owners for being cheap.
Bitches about the cost of a trans.
[quote=""AudibleSilence""]Hasn't Allison gone low 10s or 9s on her atx awd tt setup?[/quote]
No.
How fast could this guy want to go? T4 actually WAS auto, I know because Steve was trying to sell the trans for an insane amount of money and I gave him shit over it. [/quote]
Chastise 3/S owners for being cheap.
Bitches about the cost of a trans.
[quote=""AudibleSilence""]Hasn't Allison gone low 10s or 9s on her atx awd tt setup?[/quote]
No.
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Monochrome
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Re: 4G in a 3S!
[quote=""AudibleSilence""]No... I pointed out that he was selling the trans for $4,000 when it cost him $400. I.E. I was getting on his ass for trying to make a buck off of the community. Just stop now Greg.[/quote]
Yeah it's only $200 worth of labor and materials for a DR intake plenum. Yet its selling for $1000. Time to call Matt and complain.
Yeah it's only $200 worth of labor and materials for a DR intake plenum. Yet its selling for $1000. Time to call Matt and complain.
2020 Miata Club - BBS package
2020 GMC Sierra Elevation Duramax
2014 Exomotive Exocet - #101 "shocker yellow" - sold
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99 Solano Black VR4 - #16 of 287 - ground up restoration - sold
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2020 GMC Sierra Elevation Duramax
2014 Exomotive Exocet - #101 "shocker yellow" - sold
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99 Solano Black VR4 - #16 of 287 - ground up restoration - sold
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Re: 4G in a 3S!
You forgot to add in the 3SX premium for overnighting parts from Japan. That shit was pure JDM, and you know how 3SX feels about their shipping... Of course it was worth $4000.
Re: 4G in a 3S!
Neat, but has anyone upgrade to a more current technology like GTDI?
Re: 4G in a 3S!
There's 6G72 GDI MIVEC engines on eBay all day long. Nobody knows what to do with them.
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Monochrome
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Re: 4G in a 3S!
[quote=""AudibleSilence""]He was selling a USED beat up stock trans for roughly 100x it's cost. There was nothing special about it, it was a stock AWD ATX transmission. Matt put R&D into his intake....all they did was throw a tq converter on it. Apples and Oranges...but go on.[/quote]
Okay I will.
Struggling to recall if anyone played with the ATX before 3SX (more adequately Chris Hill at the time). Steve invested a lot of capital into the R&D for the whole car. Bet you a taco the trans cost him more than $400.... Then you got the custom drive shaft to make it work. Now its all common knowledge about what these transmissions are but back then, it was uncharted territory.
Hmm... What's a better fruit to compare to your apple?
How about the ARC2? What's the mark up on that I wonder? Matt certainly didn't design it and he's also the only distributer for the 3/S version (at least he was for a long time). Maybe I should call Matt and give him shit about that instead.
Okay I will.
Struggling to recall if anyone played with the ATX before 3SX (more adequately Chris Hill at the time). Steve invested a lot of capital into the R&D for the whole car. Bet you a taco the trans cost him more than $400.... Then you got the custom drive shaft to make it work. Now its all common knowledge about what these transmissions are but back then, it was uncharted territory.
Hmm... What's a better fruit to compare to your apple?
How about the ARC2? What's the mark up on that I wonder? Matt certainly didn't design it and he's also the only distributer for the 3/S version (at least he was for a long time). Maybe I should call Matt and give him shit about that instead.
2020 Miata Club - BBS package
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99 Solano Black VR4 - #16 of 287 - ground up restoration - sold
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Monochrome
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Re: 4G in a 3S!
[quote=""Jeff V.""]There's 6G72 GDI MIVEC engines on eBay all day long. Nobody knows what to do with them.[/quote]
It's a lot more work to fabricate that motor into our engine bays than the 4G64.... It's flipped around to the other side of the engine bay meaning custom accessory mounts, water neck/thermostat housing and if I recall the heads for that motor aren't nearly as good as the non-MIVEC heads we already got.
The 75 setup is more worth while.
Here's the thread about it.
http://www.3si.org/forum/f53/tt-mivec-build-431573/
Forgot to mention the hood doesn't fit anymore.
It's a lot more work to fabricate that motor into our engine bays than the 4G64.... It's flipped around to the other side of the engine bay meaning custom accessory mounts, water neck/thermostat housing and if I recall the heads for that motor aren't nearly as good as the non-MIVEC heads we already got.
The 75 setup is more worth while.
Here's the thread about it.
http://www.3si.org/forum/f53/tt-mivec-build-431573/
Forgot to mention the hood doesn't fit anymore.
Last edited by Monochrome on Wed May 14, 2014 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2020 Miata Club - BBS package
2020 GMC Sierra Elevation Duramax
2014 Exomotive Exocet - #101 "shocker yellow" - sold
Read more: http://mevowners.proboards.com/thread/5 ... g-pa-build
99 Solano Black VR4 - #16 of 287 - ground up restoration - sold
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2014 Exomotive Exocet - #101 "shocker yellow" - sold
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99 Solano Black VR4 - #16 of 287 - ground up restoration - sold
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Re: 4G in a 3S!
Matt said once he worked with arc to make the 3/s one, something to do with the mapping. Don't know if he is bsing or not though.
Coop
Coop
[quote=""Melis""]The cop asked Coop "Are you really a firefighter?" Coop was like "yeah" then the cop said "ok your in charge" then the cop left
[/quote]
DCIV: first to 2,000,000 rep points
[/quote]
DCIV: first to 2,000,000 rep points
Re: 4G in a 3S!
Note that I said GDI MIVEC. Gasoline direct injection. One like this:Greg wrote:It's a lot more work to fabricate that motor into our engine bays than the 4G64
I'm not talking about the non GDI MIVEC engine. Which, BTW, is on the correct side of the car.
Nobody knows what it'll take to retrofit the GDI engine because to my knowledge, nobody has ever taken one apart. At least not in the US. Even if they did, I doubt many people here would know how to even begin tuning one.
The newer 72 non-GDI MIVEC is on the wrong side of the car, and that's probably the one you're talking about.
Last edited by Jeff V. on Wed May 14, 2014 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Monochrome
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Re: 4G in a 3S!
Yeah Jeff. Too many damn motors to keep track of.
Tuning is the easy part.
Tuning is the easy part.
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Re: 4G in a 3S!
Unless you've been holding out on me, I'm not sure you fully understand what GDI actually does. For starters, they've got mechanical fuel pumps that run at 2000 (yes, two thousand) psi rail pressure...Greg wrote:Tuning is the easy part.
Re: 4G in a 3S!
Oh yes. Me loves direct injection. Great horsepower gains there. Just have to be careful around any fuel lines. That stuff will cut you up.
