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2 Mode Hybrids

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:23 pm
by Chris95RT
Yay! I worked on this program and helped both GM and Chrysler out... :D


Im really glad to see they're finally launching, these things will blow the escape and any of those stupid Prius' out of the water (at least i hope! :) )

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/nov07/5755
LA Auto Show: Attack of the 3-Ton Hybrids By John Voelcker
First Published November 2007
Photo: John Voelcker


Los Angeles—You know what a hybrid car looks like—the Toyota Prius, right? At least that was the prevailing wisdom before this year’s Los Angeles Auto Show in mid-November.


Now a “hybrid electric vehicle” may well be a 2500-kilogram sport-utility vehicle with a huge V8 engine. General Motors and Chrysler together now have no fewer than five of them. But underscoring the cost of developing hybrid systems, all five—new versions of the Cadillac Escalade, Chevrolet Tahoe, Chrysler Aspen, Dodge Dakota, and GMC Yukon—use the same Two-Mode Hybrid transmission, jointly engineered by GM, Daimler and Chrysler, and BMW.


The Chevrolet Tahoe Two-Mode Hybrid even won the widely publicized Green Car of the Year award, presented annually by Green Car Journal. (Its jury included such luminaries as talk-show host Jay Leno.) Weighing in at about 2500 kg, the Tahoe Hybrid is the first of a long string of GM vehicles to be offered with the Two-Mode Hybrid system. 


Using the same space as GM’s six-speed automatic transmission, the Two-Mode Hybrid system is made up of four fixed gears, two 40-kilowatt sustained electric motors, and three planetary gear sets. With a nickel-metal-hydride battery pack, it improves the Tahoe’s city fuel economy 50 percent, from 17 liters per 100 kilometers to 11 L/100 km (14 to 21 miles per gallon). As GM has noted frequently, that’s the same city mileage as a nonhybrid 4-cylinder Toyota Camry.


A test-drive in a hybrid Tahoe some weeks earlier showed that GM has achieved its goal for the truck—to improve mileage substantially while offering the same passenger- and load-carrying capacity as a full-size sport utility. Driving the Tahoe Hybrid feels familiar, except that the engine node is disconnected from the accelerator and speed: it decides for itself when to replace or supplement engine power with electric propulsion, so anticipated shift points arrive later, or not at all.


The Tahoe has many subtle changes to offset the added mass of the hybrid transmission and battery. Some body panels are aluminum, the roof rails have been removed for better aerodynamics, and an entirely new front grille and fascia assembly improves airflow, lowering front ground clearance to 15 centimeters (6 inches).


In contrast, said Glenn Denomme, Chrysler’s chief engineer for hybrid power-train systems, the Hemi Hybrid models of the Dodge Dakota and Chrysler Aspen add the Two-Mode system to an otherwise unchanged version of the standard SUV. “Even with hybrid mileage, our customers want the full vehicle with the same capacities as the standard version,” he said.


Not discussed was the source of battery packs for these vehicles—Panasonic, a company most often associated with Toyota. When asked if he was confident that the Japanese company would and could supply as many battery packs as needed, an executive with one automaker said only, “That’s an interesting question,” underscoring the complex battles among global carmakers as they ally and compete in a world of evolving motive power sources.


The LA Auto Show has worked hard to focus on environmentally friendly cars, so every exhibitor dutifully trotted out its greenest vehicles and research programs. 


After hybrid trucks came cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells. The biggest news was the North American unveiling of Honda’s FCX Clarity, a stylish four-door sedan—with a 100-kW version of the company’s V Flow fuel cell—almost identical to the FCX Concept seen last summer. 


The new vertical fuel-cell configuration, 65 percent smaller than the previous generation, is compact enough to fit in the center tunnel of this relatively low car. A lithium-ion battery pack sits under the rear seat; Honda says it is 40 percent lighter and 50 percent smaller than the ultracapacitor that stored regenerated energy in the previous FCX. The Clarity’s range is given as 435 km (270 miles).


Stressing that the car would be a “standard retail product,” Honda said it would be offered to a limited number of customers next summer through Honda dealers—for a monthly lease payment of US $600. Preference will go to drivers who live near one of the few hydrogen refueling stations, in Southern California. Honda also said it was testing a fourth generation of its Home Energy Station, an electric “garage appliance” that generates hydrogen from natural gas. 


The Honda announcement neatly counters Chevrolet’s Project Driveway effort. In three influential markets—Los Angeles, New York, and Washington, D.C.—more than 100 fuel-cell versions of Chevy’s Equinox midsize sport utility will be loaned to opinion leaders, media members, and environmentally active families for three-month stints. Chevy included an Equinox Fuel Cell in its array of green vehicles, with a new slogan: “gas friendly to gas free.”


Amid smoke and lights, Volkswagen revealed its Space Up Blue concept, a small, boxy four-door van on a rear-midengine platform it plans to put into production. The earlier Up concepts shown at the Frankfurt and Tokyo auto shows ran on gasoline and diesel, but this one has VW’s proprietary high-temperature fuel cell. The 12-kWh lithium-ion battery pack can power the car up to 100 km (62 miles) on electric alone, through a 45-kW electric motor. A further 250 km (155 miles) of range comes from 3.3 kg of compressed hydrogen powering a 12-kW fuel cell. 


With a higher average operating temperature—120 ˚C versus 80 ˚C for others—enabled by new membrane and electrode materials, VW says its fuel cell is 30 percent more compact and does not require humidification. But executive Ulrich Hackenberg admitted that the fuel-cell power train was “a little bit pie-in-the-sky,” underlining VW’s strong belief (shared by other European carmakers) that modern diesels are far better at saving fuel and reducing carbon emissions.


Along with clamshell side doors and tailgate, VW’s concept has oblong windows at the roof edges, evoking the classic VW Microbus beloved of 1960s hippies and surfers. Judging from the constant crowds around it, the oddly named Space Up Blue concept was a hit. Rumormongers chuckled that it had been called the Blue Up until U.S. marketers pointed out to the German engineers the unfortunate connotations of that name in English, but the rumor was never confirmed.


Not to be left out, Toyota opened with a fuel cell–powered Highlander that had traveled 3700 km (2300 miles) in seven days along the Alcan Highway from Fairbanks, Ala., to Vancouver, B.C., Canada. Noting that Canada permits mobile high-pressure hydrogen refueling—the United States doesn’t—Toyota touted the sturdiness and cold-weather usability of its fuel cell. Then it introduced the latest Sequoia, a full-size sport-utility vehicle with a 5.7-L V8 engine producing 284 kW (381 horsepower). 


Every auto show has striking concepts, but a 35-year-old Czechoslovakian car is pretty unusual in any venue. Global component maker Faurecia of Nanterre, France, needed to show off new concepts in interiors, lighting, seats, and other subsystems in a large car—but one with no connection to any existing maker. Its 1972 Tatra T603, originally fitted with an air-cooled aluminum V8 engine mounted at the rear, was startling even when it was new. Even amid fuel cells and huge hybrids, it may have been the show’s most unusual vehicle.


Re: 2 Mode Hybrids

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:16 pm
by Jeremy C
We've got one sitting in our lot outside right now. It's funny to see that the Tahoe won "Green Car of the Year" at the LA auto show this year. :D

Re: 2 Mode Hybrids

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:46 pm
by Daetlus
Great job!

Re: 2 Mode Hybrids

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:40 am
by Chris95RT
I remember seeing one of those about 2 years ago, even the German's were saying... "Wow, that thing is huge."

Its going to mark a new era for hybrids for sure.

Re: 2 Mode Hybrids

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:47 am
by Jeremy C
Only if it catches on. The public ultimately will decide the fate of the 2-mode system. Toyota has people believe that a vehicle must "look" like a hybrid to be sufficient. It's been repeatedly proven that showing your neighbors and fellow motorists that you own a hybrid is just as important as actually using it. It's the smug factor and the "feel good" BS that Prius drivers exude. Will these new hybrids be able to give the same smugness or will the fact that they are attached to BFT's be enough to wipe away the advances and technology that underlay the 2 mode?

Re: 2 Mode Hybrids

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:15 am
by Jeff V.
Only if it catches on. The public ultimately will decide the fate of the 2-mode system. Toyota has people believe that a vehicle must "look" like a hybrid to be sufficient. It's been repeatedly proven that showing your neighbors and fellow motorists that you own a hybrid is just as important as actually using it. It's the smug factor and the "feel good" BS that Prius drivers exude. Will these new hybrids be able to give the same smugness or will the fact that they are attached to BFT's be enough to wipe away the advances and technology that underlay the 2 mode?
This is exactly why the old Accord hybrid got canceled. It didn't look like a hybrid. The only visual difference from a base accord was the 4" "hybrid" badge on the back.

Size matters :p

Re: 2 Mode Hybrids

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:35 am
by TajMan
"Yeah I like to be part of the solution and not part of the problem
Well anyway, good for you
THANKS!"

Image

Re: 2 Mode Hybrids

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:08 am
by JagdStealth
[quote=""Gatecrasher""]This is exactly why the old Accord hybrid got canceled. It didn't look like a hybrid. The only visual difference from a base accord was the 4" "hybrid" badge on the back.

Size matters :p [/quote]

Notice the new Honda or Mazda or whatever ad where the little girl is telling her dad how her friend is better because they "drive a hybrid" and he responds with "this is a hybrid"

On a side note, when I read that ad and saw "Aspen" I can't help but think of the low point in Chryslers life:
Image

Re: 2 Mode Hybrids

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:59 pm
by Hannibalzero
[quote=""Gatecrasher""]This is exactly why the old Accord hybrid got canceled. It didn't look like a hybrid. The only visual difference from a base accord was the 4" "hybrid" badge on the back.

Size matters :p [/quote]

I was under the impression that the Accord hybrid also didn't get mileage that was that much better than the standard accord v6.


As long as gas prices stay high (probably even higher than they are now), I personally believe that hybrid use has a better chance of going mainstream if automakers can make hybrid engines available in more existing platforms. Even if there are slight cosmetic changes, I think more owners would be willing to buy a hybrid trim or add-on package if it means that they can retain all of the benefits and comforts. Right now, hybrid cars sales are mostly just a niche market. Put hybrid engines in larger, more practical cars - and make these vehicles noticeably more fuel efficient - and the car manufacturers may be able to expand hybrid sales out of their niche.

But that said, widespread hybrid use just isn't going to unless the car companies can keep the price tag down or gas gets much more expensive.

Re: 2 Mode Hybrids

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:04 pm
by Hannibalzero
15,000 miles / 14mpg x $3.00 = $3,214
15,000 miles / 21mpg x $3.00 = $2,143

That's a saving of $1,071 per year. My guess is that a two mode hybrid components and five years of the additional corresponding maintenance items will probably cost more than $5,000. Honestly, I don't see them putting out a hybrid option for under $5k. But for those who drive a lot of miles each year, or if gas prices raise substantially, this may not be such a bad option.

Re: 2 Mode Hybrids

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:01 pm
by Jeremy C
The Tahoe Hybrid comes in at a starting price $5K more than the LTZ Tahoe, but also comes with more standard features, so the premium isn't just for the hybrid technology on it's own.

Also, the hybrid technology itself should not cost you anything in maintenance for the first 5 years (as it should all be covered under warranty) so technically, the hybrid powertrain should pay for itself in the first 6 or 7 years depending on how and where you drive.

Re: 2 Mode Hybrids

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:58 pm
by JagdStealth
[quote=""Hannibalzero""]15,000 miles / 14mpg x $3.00 = $3,214
15,000 miles / 21mpg x $3.00 = $2,143

That's a saving of $1,071 per year. My guess is that a two mode hybrid components and five years of the additional corresponding maintenance items will probably cost more than $5,000. Honestly, I don't see them putting out a hybrid option for under $5k. But for those who drive a lot of miles each year, or if gas prices raise substantially, this may not be such a bad option.[/quote]


Civic Hybrid is a $5000 option for an additional 7MPG...most Hybrids are a $5-8,000 option and they only gain ~7-9MPG

The Prius is such a hit because it gets better gas mileage than the other Hybrids for the same price (10MPG better than civic Hybrid city)

Re: 2 Mode Hybrids

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:13 pm
by Chris95RT
And hopefully these will be so popular as you don't lose all functionality as an SUV and still get the 5-10mpg increase.

I hope I hope I hope.

Re: 2 Mode Hybrids

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:47 pm
by Daetlus
[quote=""JagdStealth""]Civic Hybrid is a $5000 option for an additional 7MPG...most Hybrids are a $5-8,000 option and they only gain ~7-9MPG

The Prius is such a hit because it gets better gas mileage than the other Hybrids for the same price (10MPG better than civic Hybrid city)[/quote]

They best figure something out. I refuse to drive a hybrid until it's fast....and doesn't look like a hybrid.

Re: 2 Mode Hybrids

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:30 pm
by Hannibalzero
[quote=""Daetlus""]They best figure something out. I refuse to drive a hybrid until it's fast....and doesn't look like a hybrid.[/quote]

That's pretty much how I feel.