BAWC Forums

[quote=""Jeff V.""] But cars aren't like iPhones, where you can just afford to toss is out after 2-3 years. [/quote]

I bet they all wish we were like Steve.

If Tesla assumes a 7KW battery pack, that's a certain chemistry, and you change it out without letting it know you could burn the garage down with little fluffy/Timmy in it. Now if you swap all of it out, battery + charging algorithm, with an approved aftermarket charging system then I don't think that's bad but the idea of approved is subjective to me and I'm sure it's the same to Tesla too.

Billy wrote:Essentially (and I could certainly be wrong), what you guys did with the code from the Mitsu ECU's is illegal.

It's a pretty weird gray area. It's illegal to circumvent 'access' controls' like DVD encryption or seed/key authentication in ECUs. Mitsu doesn't even implement any actual security beyond their proprietary flashing methods, and those are easy and I think legal to reverse engineer.

Distributing stock and edited ROM files is almost certainly a copyright violation though. The proper legal way to do it would be to develop a patching mechanism and then just load the changes into the ECU data that somebody else already owns.

It's funny we're having this conversation. I just dumped two new Mitsu ECUs last night in support of the engine swaps Steve and I are doing

Chris wrote:If Tesla assumes a 7KW battery pack, that's a certain chemistry, and you change it out without letting it know you could burn the garage down with little fluffy/Timmy in it. Now if you swap all of it out, battery + charging algorithm, with an approved aftermarket charging system then I don't think that's bad but the idea of approved is subjective to me and I'm sure it's the same to Tesla too.

If GM assumes your rear axles are only good for 300 ft-lbs of torque and you go and double that with a pair of turbos, you could kill little fluffy/Timmy during a highway pull. Since they don't release those detailed material specs, you're still making an educated guess whether it can handle the load or not. Same with the battery pack. At least with battery management data, I can analyze whether or not the pack is accepting the changes. I can't data log a metal halfshaft

will driveline parts spontaneously combust though?

They don't. They shatter and send you into a wall at 120 mph.

Or your transmission gears blow apart at 75mph on a 2 lane rural highway. That one happened to me in my first Stealth. It's only by luck that the wheels didn't lock up at speed. They did once I stopped though.

Maybe Mitsu should have prevented me from turboing the car so I can't hurt myself.

Chris wrote:2) You have to worry about someone reverse engineering your stuff, which you spent a lot of time developing on and stealing it.

Did Ford not have a "Competitive Vehicle Analysis Lab" ? GM sure as hell did. I found their intranet site when I was bored at work one day. They bought entire competitor vehicles and stripped them down to every last nut and bolt. If you think they didn't also look at the software side, you're kidding yourself. Bored car nerds with no background in software engineering are disassembling that shit. There's no way the OEMs aren't.

I'll never be able to un-see what they did to that poor, brand new Tundra....

yeah, but not just sitting the garage waiting for the morning commute.

[quote=""Jeff V.""]They don't. They shatter and send you into a wall at 120 mph.

Or your transmission gears blow apart at 75mph on a 2 lane rural highway. That one happened to me in my first Stealth. It's only by luck that the wheels didn't lock up at speed. They did once I stopped though.

Maybe Mitsu should have prevented me from turboing the car so I can't hurt myself.

[/quote]

NOT THE MANIFOLD!!!!111

Billy wrote:Yeah, but not just sitting the garage waiting for the morning commute.

Did I remember to tighten down that fuel banjo? The explosion that was caused by my furnace igniting the gasoline fumes, tells me I did not.

:d oh:

Maybe Mitsu should seal off the fuel components with a special fitting and only sell the tool to specially trained and authorized repair centers...


Laugh all you want, but this isn't hyperbole. Think back to the fuel tank leak I had on my truck. My house was filled with fuel fumes for TWO DAYS. I only mustered the courage to turn on a fan after I did some reading about the vapor density needed to trigger an explosion.

well shit jeff, i pipe gas right into my house to cook on, heat my water and keep me warm.

Did YOU remember to tighten the banjo clamp or did mitsu? From the factory, they do their best to idiot proof things.

If GM assumes your rear axles are only good for 300 ft-lbs of torque and you go and double that with a pair of turbos, you could kill little fluffy/Timmy during a highway pull. Since they don't release those detailed material specs, you're still making an educated guess whether it can handle the load or not. Same with the battery pack. At least with battery management data, I can analyze whether or not the pack is accepting the changes. I can't data log a metal halfshaft

I don't think you're seeing my point. If you blow out a VCU/Halfshaft on the highway, during a highway pull you're there and in control of the vehicle. If you burn down the garage overnight because the value charge kicked in at 2am, you are not there and not in control of the vehicle.

Did Ford not have a "Competitive Vehicle Analysis Lab" ? GM sure as hell did. I found their intranet site when I was bored at work one day. They bought entire competitor vehicles and stripped them down to every last nut and bolt. If you think they didn't also look at the software side, you're kidding yourself. Bored car nerds with no background in software engineering are disassembling that shit. There's no way the OEMs aren't.

They did, but that did not include software algorithms!

Billy wrote:Well shit jeff, i pipe gas right into my house to cook on, heat my water and keep me warm.

Did YOU remember to tighten the banjo clamp or did mitsu? From the factory, they do their best to idiot proof things.

Exactly. But they didn't over-do it to prevent me from hurting myself. I was even able to buy a book that tells me exactly how to repair it correctly and safely.

I totally get where Chris is coming from with the dangers of HV electrical hardware. He's forgotten more than all of us put together know about that topic. I defer to his expertise on the science of it.

It's the real world application and Tesla's handling of it where we're disagreeing.

Stupidity kills. Inattention kills. Ignorance kills. None of this is unique to electric vehicles.

Chris wrote:They did, but that did not include software algorithms!

I'd guess that particular bit of expertise was passed to Delhpi, Visteon, Bosch, etc...

While I don't disagree, the margin for error for these types of things is a lot tighter and that's the motivation I see that Tesla has for controlling things.

You could have a similar argument with the driver assistance/AV related software as well.

[quote=""Jeff V.""]
I'd guess that particular bit of expertise was passed to Delhpi, Visteon, Bosch, etc...[/quote]


To test other peoples software algorithms it was usually through long term testing of seeing what happened when we did something to the car.

Once again, if they'd provide open, accessible documentation and repair/diagnostic tools, they'd end most of this hacking/alteration shit overnight. The DIY folks are in the minority as it is. Most people will still take their cars to a professional, even for trivial shit. At least with open docs, owners would have a choice of who they went to for work.

That is funny.

Coop

[quote=""Jeff V.""]Once again, if they'd provide open, accessible documentation and repair/diagnostic tools, they'd end most of this hacking/alteration shit overnight. The DIY folks are in the minority as it is. Most people will still take their cars to a professional, even for trivial shit. At least with open docs, owners would have a choice of who they went to for work.[/quote]

I mean, I totally understand the want to mess with stuff, please don't get me wrong, but there's so much going on with respect to edge causes, failure modes, etc. that an individual would be hard pressed to want to rewrite things. I mean, the dude in this story basically said he has no idea what he's doing, and coming from an OEM POV Tesla needs to make sure that their asses aren't on the line.

From previous experience most of the diagnostics required to diagnose the HV and LV battery are OBD diagnostics since it's an OBD compliant part, there's just no need to mess with the charging/battery system like there would be to a car and this is because, and I hate to restate myself, latent failure modes in a battery pack due to incorrect management are a lot harder to detect than an engine.

And their results are a lot more spectacular than just rod knock, and you're not guaranteed to be there. And, like I said, I can imagine a situation where someone like you Jeff, whose very competent begins to mess with stuff and accidentally touches the wrong thing, gets shocked, and ends up a Donald Trump supporter. That'd be terrible, and I'm sure Vira would then start by suing Tesla and under the auspices that they should've done a better job to protect you from the car.

We're drifting away from my original issue with this and starting to obsess over details.

They can build access controls into their car all they want. It's not just their right but their duty to make it as safe as possible, even in the hands of the most ignorant, ham fisted idiot.

But they do not have the right to alter it after I have paid for it. It is not their property any more.

[quote=""Jeff V.""]But they do not have the right to alter it after I have paid for it. It is not their property any more.[/quote]
Are you sure? Did you read the EULA?