If the BCM supplier was building the same range of modules for everyone, costs would go down. If the physical interface and protocol were open, like with things like HDMI and PCI-E, then costs would go down.
The Bosch HMI (infotainment) module in my Corvette is used in most of GMs current lineup. It's got traces on the board for the uplevel GPS capable version. They're just not populated. This modularity is obviously possible.
I know there are newer ISO standards. But the US Government has not specified or allowed use of those standards for EPA compliance purposes.
The beginning of the end for ECU tuning?
Moderator: Monochrome
Re: The beginning of the end for ECU tuning?
Last edited by Jeff V. on Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I think about all the things we could have done, all the miracles we could have achieved, if we were all just a little bit better than it turns out we are.
--Naomi Nagata
--Naomi Nagata
Re: The beginning of the end for ECU tuning?
I guess you're not really proving the cost reduction scenario to me. The requirements are different, and if that resulted in a 50c cost difference (let alone a dollar or 5 dollars), and you're making a ton of them I certainly wouldn't populate an interface if I didn't need to.
Would the Cruz program want to pay for it as much as the Corvette program? Especially when one car is 50k and the other retails for 20k?
This stuff happens in the consumer world too from my experience.
Would the Cruz program want to pay for it as much as the Corvette program? Especially when one car is 50k and the other retails for 20k?
This stuff happens in the consumer world too from my experience.
Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young. -Ford
Re: The beginning of the end for ECU tuning?
There's not going to be one module to rule them all. But there could be a range. Just like I can buy laptops with different capabilities. If I'm making 3 different base platforms, that's going to be cheaper than making 10 different, bespoke modules.
I think about all the things we could have done, all the miracles we could have achieved, if we were all just a little bit better than it turns out we are.
--Naomi Nagata
--Naomi Nagata
Re: The beginning of the end for ECU tuning?
I think about all the things we could have done, all the miracles we could have achieved, if we were all just a little bit better than it turns out we are.
--Naomi Nagata
--Naomi Nagata
Re: The beginning of the end for ECU tuning?
I'm out of energy to Google things, but from looking at AUTOSAR stuff it looks like the later revision of the spec is being implemented for AUTOSAR which is an industry wide effort to standardize software interfaces to the application layer- exactly what you're arguing for and what I've brought up in the past.I know there are newer ISO standards. But the US Government has not specified or allowed use of those standards for EPA compliance purposes.
https://www.autosar.org/fileadmin/user_ ... tLayer.pdf
So whether or not the government is enforcing that specific revision, it's certainly headed that way it seems.
Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young. -Ford
Re: The beginning of the end for ECU tuning?
[quote=""Jeff V.""]There's not going to be one module to rule them all. But there could be a range. Just like I can buy laptops with different capabilities. If I'm making 3 different base platforms, that's going to be cheaper than making 10 different, bespoke modules.[/quote]
This is making my statement for me man, they consolidate where they can and where it makes sense.
This is making my statement for me man, they consolidate where they can and where it makes sense.
Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young. -Ford
Re: The beginning of the end for ECU tuning?
[quote=""Jeff V.""]Looks like these guys are trying to do what I'm suggesting.
https://www.pi-innovo.com/product/[/quote]
I see 9 modules there, 5 engine controllers and 3-4 chassis controllers for that controlled situation. Is this more or less than the situation you don't want?
Cool though!
https://www.pi-innovo.com/product/[/quote]
I see 9 modules there, 5 engine controllers and 3-4 chassis controllers for that controlled situation. Is this more or less than the situation you don't want?
Cool though!
Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young. -Ford
Re: The beginning of the end for ECU tuning?
Depends. Are they plug and play interchangeable between OEMs?
I'm arguing for shit that's never going to happen. But I'm dumb like that.
I'm arguing for shit that's never going to happen. But I'm dumb like that.
I think about all the things we could have done, all the miracles we could have achieved, if we were all just a little bit better than it turns out we are.
--Naomi Nagata
--Naomi Nagata
Re: The beginning of the end for ECU tuning?
[quote=""Jeff V.""]Depends. Are they plug and play interchangeable between OEMs?
I'm arguing for shit that's never going to happen. But I'm dumb like that.[/quote]
I wasn't able to ascertain that these guys were able to do that without limitation.
I look at it like this, taking your HDMI example. If you look at what a driver for that costs it's between 2-5 dollars depending upon volume.
https://www.mouser.com/Semiconductors/I ... ?P=1z0j7iu
If you're making 100k (minimum) of those, that's a pretty significant cost sink. So what do you do? Design the PCB such that you can jumper it in and out, and put a DNP on it when you don't want to include it.
I'm arguing for shit that's never going to happen. But I'm dumb like that.[/quote]
I wasn't able to ascertain that these guys were able to do that without limitation.
I look at it like this, taking your HDMI example. If you look at what a driver for that costs it's between 2-5 dollars depending upon volume.
https://www.mouser.com/Semiconductors/I ... ?P=1z0j7iu
If you're making 100k (minimum) of those, that's a pretty significant cost sink. So what do you do? Design the PCB such that you can jumper it in and out, and put a DNP on it when you don't want to include it.
Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young. -Ford
Re: The beginning of the end for ECU tuning?
Make it modular. If you can't include traces on the board for option parts, then include riser for a daughtercard. Audi tried this with some NVidia hardware in their infotainment systems. I'm honestly not sure why it didn't catch on.
I think about all the things we could have done, all the miracles we could have achieved, if we were all just a little bit better than it turns out we are.
--Naomi Nagata
--Naomi Nagata
Re: The beginning of the end for ECU tuning?
That's exactly what I said with including jumpers and do not populates, and that's done to an extent everywhere.
Not really knowing how that scenario worked out, it sounds like a manufacturing and production hit though which is maybe why I didn't catch on.
Not really knowing how that scenario worked out, it sounds like a manufacturing and production hit though which is maybe why I didn't catch on.
Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young. -Ford
Re: The beginning of the end for ECU tuning?
It's a start. At least people can legally discuss security workarounds. Actually cracking that security is a whole other matter though.
I think about all the things we could have done, all the miracles we could have achieved, if we were all just a little bit better than it turns out we are.
--Naomi Nagata
--Naomi Nagata
Re: The beginning of the end for ECU tuning?
I was gonna post that!
Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young. -Ford
Re: The beginning of the end for ECU tuning?
HP Tuners will replace your factory ECU with a customized one for $2000 + core (or $2500 outright). Then another few hundred dollars in tuning credits. It's about $3000 all-in if you don't already own the HPT kit, and that's before you buy credits for the 2-3 other modules (trans, chassis, secondary fuel injection) you'll need to program for a complete end to end tune. Oh, and you still need the GM diagnostic software to do immobilizer and crank variation relearns. All this assumes you're doing the tuning yourself. I haven't seen turn-key pricing from any of the big shops yet.
They never cracked the GM encryption. I'm pretty sure what they're doing is buying new CPUs, burning known encryption keys into them, and installing them on the ECUs they're getting as cores. The new ECU is only programmable via HP Tuners. The GM diagnostic tools still work, but nothing else can write software to it.
They never cracked the GM encryption. I'm pretty sure what they're doing is buying new CPUs, burning known encryption keys into them, and installing them on the ECUs they're getting as cores. The new ECU is only programmable via HP Tuners. The GM diagnostic tools still work, but nothing else can write software to it.
Last edited by Jeff V. on Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I think about all the things we could have done, all the miracles we could have achieved, if we were all just a little bit better than it turns out we are.
--Naomi Nagata
--Naomi Nagata
Re: The beginning of the end for ECU tuning?
Ouch. I guess that's a way to get it done, but damn - the cost.
-Matt
'21 Corvette Stingray HTC Z51
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4 (11.838@117.56)
'21 Corvette Stingray HTC Z51
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4 (11.838@117.56)
Re: The beginning of the end for ECU tuning?
HP Tuners page with pricing: https://www.hptuners.com/product/zr1-mo ... e-service/
$2000 for the ECU (2500 without core)
$300 for the HPT programming hardware and software
$500 worth of programming credits for the ECM
$200 for one-time trans controller unlocking, and you have to ship it to them
$200 worth of programming credits for the TCM
$150 worth of credits for the chassis control module (I think this is mainly for tuning the adjustable exhaust)
$150 worth of credits for the secondary port fuel injection control module. The LT5 runs both direct and port injection.
So $3500 if you've got an automatic trans, and that's before anyone has actually tuned the thing.
ZR1 is going to be a one year run, so production will only be 2500ish cars. The market for this just isn't that big.
I guess it's cool they found a workaround, but damn...you could build one hell of a Z06 with the money you save by going down that road instead.
$2000 for the ECU (2500 without core)
$300 for the HPT programming hardware and software
$500 worth of programming credits for the ECM
$200 for one-time trans controller unlocking, and you have to ship it to them
$200 worth of programming credits for the TCM
$150 worth of credits for the chassis control module (I think this is mainly for tuning the adjustable exhaust)
$150 worth of credits for the secondary port fuel injection control module. The LT5 runs both direct and port injection.
So $3500 if you've got an automatic trans, and that's before anyone has actually tuned the thing.
ZR1 is going to be a one year run, so production will only be 2500ish cars. The market for this just isn't that big.
I guess it's cool they found a workaround, but damn...you could build one hell of a Z06 with the money you save by going down that road instead.
Last edited by Jeff V. on Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I think about all the things we could have done, all the miracles we could have achieved, if we were all just a little bit better than it turns out we are.
--Naomi Nagata
--Naomi Nagata